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my latest guitar
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Author:  runamuck [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  my latest guitar
Thin, metallic trebles (first 2 strings), full and gorgeous low end.

What did I do wrong?

The top is fairly thin - .1 - and the bracing very light.
Author:  David Newton [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Thin = metallic
Author:  meddlingfool [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Play it for a week and see what happens. That tightness can disappear swiftly in a brand new guitar...
Author:  RusRob [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
You might try different brands and gages of strings on it. A lot of guitars just sound better with one brand of strings over another. I finished my first guitar this spring and have gone through about 6 sets so far. It is a parlor and so far it sounds and plays best with D'Adderio custom lights. Strings can bring out the best or worst of any guitar.

And breaking in a guitar will make a big difference in how open it sounds. I have bought guitars that were rarely played and the first thing I usually do is put it on a stand directly in front of my home stereo speaker. I set it up about 2" in front of the woofer directly pointing into the sound hole. I usually put on some classical guitar music and let it play for about 3 days. Some people say it is crazy talk and a waste of time but I think It really does open up a guitar.

Bob
Author:  runamuck [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
It's been a couple months since I completed it and I've tried a couple different types of strings (light and medium).
This isn't my first guitar.

I hope for treble strings that are full and warm. This is not that.

Any further ideas? I've been think of adding mass in some form to the top but I've never done anything like that.
Author:  weslewis [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
check the nut and saddle,they should be smooth, no binding, rear of saddle should be rounded , string slots should angle towards tuners. And to open a can of worms I have switched to Tusq nuts and saddle material which IMO have made a difference in the way my guitars sound, fuller with more sustain.
Author:  David Newton [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
What size guitar is it? Show it. There may be something in the set up that makes it lean the way it is.
More info needed.

When I was disappointed with the tone of my earlier guitars, I would quickly move on with a new one. I didn't spend too much time trying to fix the tone. You can fix some things, some you can't.
Learning to build the guitar that has the tone you want is a big deal, and it usually doesn't just fall in your lap, it takes a lot of time.
Author:  Toonces [ Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
My instruments always sound harsh and brittle for the first few days. The strident, unbalanced tone disappears about 5 days in and the instruments always sound remarkably better after the first week. After that, they continue to change but not as drastically. About 3 weeks out and the guitars have pretty much found their voice. At least, this has been my experience after building quite a few guitars. I also strum the hell out of them during this period for at least 10 minutes or so a day.

Since it has been a couple months -- the issue is most certainly the instrument itself. You need to alter you bracing design to enhance the treble response. There are a number of ways to go about this but the most important part is either extremely detailed records of each build or exceptional consistency during the build process that allows you to tweak certain elements and see how they affect your instruments. Without knowing the details of how your guitar was built it really is impossible to give you pointers; however, if the bass is awesome and the trebles are weak --- then the most straightforward answer is to simply "tighten up" your top a little bit.
Author:  runamuck [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Thank you Simon,

When you say "tighten up", does that equate with "stiffen up"?

And if it does, is there a particular area that would be best to stiffen?
Author:  phil [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
I'm with the others. Be patient. It will never sound more "metallic" or "thin" or "harsh" than it does right now. From here on it can only get warmer.
Author:  Greg B [ Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
runamuck wrote:
Thin, metallic trebles (first 2 strings), full and gorgeous low end.

What did I do wrong?

The top is fairly thin - .1 - and the bracing very light.


That's not unusual IME for really lightly built guitars. Like others have said, they trebles will grow and develop as the guitar breaks in. Might take a year.

If you want thicker meatier trebles right now, try adding some stiffness right under the bridge in the form of a Musser bar, or whatever people call them now.
Author:  Haans [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Thin top, thin tone. Thick top/solid bracing, fat, meaty tone, IMO.
Author:  runamuck [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Greg B wrote:


If you want thicker meatier trebles right now, try adding some stiffness right under the bridge in the form of a Musser bar, or whatever people call them now.


Musser bar? Can you describe, Greg?
Author:  Tom West [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Get a thick flatpick, beat the crap out of the strings for a couple of weeks before you do any mods.
Tom
Author:  Haans [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
A Musser bar is a brace right behind the bridge plate. Usually less than 1/2" or so tall and spans the plate if I remember right...
Author:  jack [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
another name for the Musser brace might be the Proux 'magic tone enhancer' http://www.proulxguitars.com/buildup/build6.htm
Author:  Toonces [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
If I remember correctly, the "Musser Bar" just connects one of the x-braces to one of the lower bout braces on a standard x-brace pattern. That would definitely help stiffen up the area. 0.100" isn't really that thin and you could probably go much lighter. I do agree with Haans -- very thin tops tend to sound a bit "empty" and "sterile" to my ears but you'd have to go much thinner than you are. I build very light tops but still get a very fat, rich tone.

Again, there really are no magic bracing systems -- it is the whole system that is important and that is why it helps to be consistent or take very detailed records.

When I said tighten up - yes, I mean stiffen up the top so that the monopole action is reduced. Ideally, you want to still retain the wonderful bass but bring the mids and trebles into balance. That takes a bit of experimentation to do. You could try a tighter x-brace or a more controlled lower bout. Think about how your guitar produces treble and then do everything you can to enhance those vibrational patterns.

Lastly, I do disagree with those who think the issues will be remedied over time. If your guitars don't sound good within a couple weeks, then you've got problems with the design. The only exception would be for instruments built with thick tops -- I do believe that style of bracing takes a bit more time to break in -- maybe up to a year of heavy playing.
Author:  Haans [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Oops, looks like I got Musser bars and PMTE's mixed up.
Author:  Greg B [ Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Hmm, not sure if you do. Does Grumpy still hang out here? We need clarification... :)

I've always thought Musser bars were the small brace right behind the bridge plate, parallel to the bridge. The little angled brace that goes from the bridge plate to the first tone bar is something I've only seen in that old picture of a Proulx guitar. That guitar, BTW, has both additional braces. It seems from the text that he is calling the Musser bar a PMTE, and the little mystery brace is not named. (?) Seems like they'd both help stiffen this area.

Anyhow, IME that stiffness right under the bridge is the key to thick and rich trebles. If the rest of the top is left alone and loose, the good bass should be retained.

I think this kind of tweaking is something everyone has to discover for themselves. At any rate, it is reasonably easy to add a little brace behind the bridge, and remove it if you don't like the effect.
Author:  runamuck [ Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Thanks everyone. This has been helpful.
Author:  TimAllen [ Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: my latest guitar
Sorry I'm coming in late, but this might help. You may want to check out some earlier discussions on bridge weight. Lighter bridges tend to favor treble, while adding weight cuts highs. In my own limited experience this is very noticeable. Can you thin your bridge?

If you do add a Musser brace, I'd suggest spruce, not a heavy wood as is used for a PMTE.

Finally, Alan Carruth has previously suggested thinning the top either side of the bridge to enhance treble. I have no personal experience with this but his other voicing suggestions really work for me.
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